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 Post subject: Re: Bringing through Wilshere
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:12 am 
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Yeah, pointless, playing 90 competitive minutes, a chance to win an international trophy against the best talents in Europe and improving his international prospects while not getting media drivel on him. Or playing half's vs half fit preseason teams with nothing but a tinpot trophy where the media will begin absurd hype, I know which I think would be better. Even so, we didn't even have the option to withdraw him because he wasn't picked in the squad at all, he hadn't done enough for U17's or qualifying to get him in. He wasn't good enough to get into the Arsenal side most of the season but suddenly now is on the basis of?

Does Wenger not know what he has on his hands but needs preseason to tell him? Then he is a far worse manager then I thought. I don't see how, a player who isn't good enough for an England U19 team begging for wingers has suddenly launched into a regular squad member this season for one of the biggest club in England. Wenger may throw him into one or two other games early on like last season but would expect him to withdraw to reserves matches as the season draws on, he has many options ahead of him right now and best to develop away from the spotlight, let his body and mind grow away from the fuss.


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 Post subject: Re: Bringing through Wilshere
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:33 am 
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Magic Hat wrote:
Does Wenger not know what he has on his hands but needs preseason to tell him? Then he is a far worse manager then I thought.


So how bad do you think he is ?


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 Post subject: Re: Bringing through Wilshere
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 12:13 pm 
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Magic Hat wrote:
Does Wenger not know what he has on his hands but needs preseason to tell him? Then he is a far worse manager then I thought. I don't see how, a player who isn't good enough for an England U19 team begging for wingers has suddenly launched into a regular squad member this season for one of the biggest club in England.


Think you're being a bit over the top MH.

If the England u'19 squad was to be picked this Friday for example, Wilshire would surely be in it now right?

It's not a case of 'not being good enough for the U19 team', it's more the talent we have all seen, in pre-season friendlies and through his reserve games that make fans naturally excited. I don't think Arsenal fans are calling for him to be a first team player, just that fans get fustrated, and rightly so, when players like Eboue and Diaby get game time ahead of these talented youngers.

Personally I think he should be used in the Carling cup, and as a backup if we get any injuries in the league. At the moment there are too many players ahead of him in the pecking order for him to be a regular squad member.


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 Post subject: Re: Bringing through Wilshere
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 12:24 pm 
Magic Hat wrote:
Yeah, pointless, playing 90 competitive minutes, a chance to win an international trophy against the best talents in Europe and improving his international prospects while not getting media drivel on him. Or playing half's vs half fit preseason teams with nothing but a tinpot trophy where the media will begin absurd hype, I know which I think would be better. Even so, we didn't even have the option to withdraw him because he wasn't picked in the squad at all, he hadn't done enough for U17's or qualifying to get him in. He wasn't good enough to get into the Arsenal side most of the season but suddenly now is on the basis of?

Does Wenger not know what he has on his hands but needs preseason to tell him? Then he is a far worse manager then I thought. I don't see how, a player who isn't good enough for an England U19 team begging for wingers has suddenly launched into a regular squad member this season for one of the biggest club in England. Wenger may throw him into one or two other games early on like last season but would expect him to withdraw to reserves matches as the season draws on, he has many options ahead of him right now and best to develop away from the spotlight, let his body and mind grow away from the fuss.


It doesn't matter how young you are... Not experienced is also the most stupid thing (in general) that can be said. Footballers make mistakes, whether you are 17 or 34 years old. This guy has what it takes and will hopefully play a big part in this season. I'm not saying he should be a regular starter (I agree with you that the likes of Rosicky, Walcott, Nasri and Arshavin are better), but does anyone know how many games Eboue has played last season (as winger/RM)? Well, that amount of games/minutes, because Wilshere is already a 10x better player than him...


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 Post subject: Re: Bringing through Wilshere
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 3:08 pm 
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Mike SA wrote:

So how bad do you think he is ?


You honestly think Wenger's mind is made up by preseason rather then training and matches all last season?

SloppyGooner wrote:

Think you're being a bit over the top MH.

If the England u'19 squad was to be picked this Friday for example, Wilshire would surely be in it now right?

It's not a case of 'not being good enough for the U19 team', it's more the talent we have all seen, in pre-season friendlies and through his reserve games that make fans naturally excited. I don't think Arsenal fans are calling for him to be a first team player, just that fans get fustrated, and rightly so, when players like Eboue and Diaby get game time ahead of these talented youngers.

Personally I think he should be used in the Carling cup, and as a backup if we get any injuries in the league. At the moment there are too many players ahead of him in the pecking order for him to be a regular squad member.


About the importance of U19 championships, my disbelief with the idea that Wenger picks youth players for first team on preseason alone?

Would Wilshire be picked? If we are including the U19's that just played (fully fit) then no, even more no if Uefa forced the clubs to hand players over.

I get the excitement, he is a very talented player and he looks like he could be world class but key phrase for me is looks like. He is young, there is so much that he has to learn and that go wrong both physically and mentally, I think my natural urge is to mother a young player. Maybe I do that too much but I would rather be overcautious then see a player wrecked by being used too early or too often too young.

With Eboue, depends what type of game, there are ones where we need his defensive ability and his ability to carry ball upfield quickly while others were Wilshire's creativity is better suited. My hopes for him this season are Carling Cup and lower league FA cup games, not to be pressing for first team spot and

whasjoewahn wrote:

It doesn't matter how young you are... Not experienced is also the most stupid thing (in general) that can be said. Footballers make mistakes, whether you are 17 or 34 years old. This guy has what it takes and will hopefully play a big part in this season. I'm not saying he should be a regular starter (I agree with you that the likes of Rosicky, Walcott, Nasri and Arshavin are better), but does anyone know how many games Eboue has played last season (as winger/RM)? Well, that amount of games/minutes, because Wilshere is already a 10x better player than him...


Experience can be less of a problem with attacking players then defensive ones but young players are still growing in terms of body, mental maturity, ability to cope with pressure. Eboue played around 40+ games last season, even with times at rightback and dm, that is a lot of games for a 17 year old to fill. I doubt anyone in Eboue's position will get so many games due to the new system unless as a cm


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 Post subject: Re: Bringing through Wilshere
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 3:49 pm 
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I'm with Magic Hat on this one guys. We all know that Wilshere is a very good talent. Even MH is not saying he isn't. But let's not get carried away with two good performances in a meaningless pre-season tournament. Was he great in those games? Sure he was, but the opposition was two teams that were either just starting their preseason (La Liga starts later than Premier League) or are not top rate opposition (Rangers? come on, they aren't that good). Remember Jack lit up last preseason as well, was handed a squad number and then rarely featured. Could he do the same against a top team in mid-season form? I'm not convinced.

I'll contend that as long as we are challenging for the title we won't see much of Jack in the Premier League. If we get into a position where we are locked in say 3rd or 4th again, we might see some more of him. He won't play in the Champions League at all. Carling Cup and even FA Cup, sure.

Yes, Fabregas went into the team very young, and maybe Wilshere could do that too. On the other hand, maybe he can't. I don't think the Emirates Cup is enough to decide that, and I trust that if Wenger doesn't think he can, then he likely can't. Think the boss has a pretty good idea on where his young talent is at. He's 17, he's got his whole career ahead. Let's just give him time.

EDIT: more than happy to be proved wrong...


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 Post subject: Re: Bringing through Wilshere
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 9:38 pm 
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I'm hearing phrases such as 'lets not get carried away' and 'don't get too excited'

Why?

Its football, lets enjoy it, lets get carried away, whats the big deal? If I wanted to be sensible and moderate I wouldn't follow football.

I am imaging Jackie boy scoring hat-tricks at Old Trafford, winning World Cups for England and lobbing goalkeepers from 70 yards.

Why shouldn't I?


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 Post subject: Re: Bringing through Wilshere
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 9:55 pm 
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We all dream, nobody is saying don't dream.

Put expectations that try to rush the manager and player is another matter


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 Post subject: Re: Bringing through Wilshere
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:07 pm 
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Well of course, I can't help but allow them, they aren't going to listen to me. :wink:

My point I guess is "Why so serious?"

Let people dream, let them get carried away, its football, its all about going crazy and having fun. Forget the tabloids, they are to football what ashtrays are to motorbikes.


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 Post subject: Re: Bringing through Wilshere
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:20 pm 
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AP's right - let's enjoy every second of Wilshere, of our club having a homegrown hero that every other club in the world would want.


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 Post subject: Re: Bringing through Wilshere
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:17 pm 
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Been left out of Pearce's u21 squad for the up and coming games, I guess he'll go to the u19's first to keep his feet on the ground and see how he does at the start of the season.

I don't see why he wasn't at the u19 Championship in all honestly.


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 Post subject: Re: Bringing through Wilshere
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:38 pm 
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The majority of that squad has either played for him before (James Vaughan is still eligible?) or are players 99.% likely to make the U20 world cup squad, I believe managers to be cautoius with their picks at this stage.

Wilshire wasn't picked for U19 qualification games (my mistake, got him confused with Murphy) yet did get some friendlies, may have been some reluctance to play him after only three months since the U17's championships or he didn't show enough in friendlies.


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 Post subject: Re: Bringing through Wilshere
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:15 pm 
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I wonder whether Wilshere is being considered as a replacement for Cesc if/when he decides to leave? I think it's fair to say that if Jack continues on his current level of progress and fulfills his potential, then he will be as good if not better than Cesc. This is why i believe that if we were to receive a bid in the region of 50m the Arsene Wenger would have to consider it.

Would It even be possible to accommodate both Jack and Cesc in the same team?


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 Post subject: Re: Bringing through Wilshere
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:20 pm 
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Dannyg wrote:
I wonder whether Wilshere is being considered as a replacement for Cesc if/when he decides to leave? I think it's fair to say that if Jack continues on his current level of progress and fulfills his potential, then he will be as good if not better than Cesc. This is why i believe that if we were to receive a bid in the region of 50m the Arsene Wenger would have to consider it.

Would It even be possible to accommodate both Jack and Cesc in the same team?


Yeh they're totally different players. It's like saying could Iniesta and Messi play in the same team?


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 Post subject: Re: Bringing through Wilshere
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:24 pm 
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SloppyGooner wrote:
Dannyg wrote:
I wonder whether Wilshere is being considered as a replacement for Cesc if/when he decides to leave? I think it's fair to say that if Jack continues on his current level of progress and fulfills his potential, then he will be as good if not better than Cesc. This is why i believe that if we were to receive a bid in the region of 50m the Arsene Wenger would have to consider it.

Would It even be possible to accommodate both Jack and Cesc in the same team?


Yeh they're totally different players. It's like saying could Iniesta and Messi play in the same team?


Well not really, Neither Cesc or Jack are anything like Messi. Do you expect them to play in the same team this season then? They both have similar attributes do you not think?


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