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 Post subject: Re: Has Wenger's tenure run it's course ?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:21 pm 
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The work wenger is doing at the moment is up there with all his best from the past, the level of control that has been placed on him and trust the board has in him is unbreakable in my view. The financial situation and paying off the debt as soon as possible has to be the first priority, the sooner thats done the sooner we can truley move in to the mega club status.

It's true the club has changed route, but making money is just as importan as the football, and manchester united have showen us how it should be done. we are now on par with them as to set up of the club for the first time in 15 years, who knows what the future holds we could still win the league but if we don't there's always next season :)

It's been a decent season with a lot of improvment from most players in the squad, which is down to wenger and the players them selfs. 3 points of the top with five games to play i'd of taking that at the start of the season i can't see what else people can expect really considering man utd, and chelsea are lauded as the dogs bollocks by the media yet we sit a few points of both with what some people think is the weakest arsenal squad under wenger, thats how good a job he's doing.


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 Post subject: Re: Has Wenger's tenure run it's course ?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:34 pm 
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Tubzinho wrote:
Anarion wrote:
As I mentioned though, we have spent big money on players recently - Vermaelen, Arshavin, Nasri etc. It's not like he refuses to spend at all. Perhaps we don't see it the same because we also have made recent big sales.


Those acquisitions though are made because we have to replace departed players with quality. When Wenger set out with this "masterplan" the aim was to build a team and then let it grow together. The problem we have had is every season we have lost a key player and had to replace them with someone. Hence the majority of any budget has been spent on repalcing players rather than serving its intended purpose, to reinforce the squad. In this area I believe Wenger's ideology has failed and I believe also a key reason in why the club's progress has stagnated.

Anarion wrote:
If anything I sometimes question the areas that we spend in, not whether we spend at all. Unless 10 million is not big enough money, I guess. Who specifically would be preferred? Because if we just want a spender I'm sure we can get Rafa or Redknapp, not that that would actually get us anywhere.


In regards to recruiting players its about getting the right players, not how much we spend. I don't care if we spend £2 or £20million pounds on the players we need, as long as we get the 4-5 players we need to potentially kick us on to the next level.


I don't want to nest too many quotes. I don't entirely disagree with you, and I do agree with strengthening needed but some points.

How have we stagnated? This year we are much improved from last year I think, certainly within closer distance to the title and one insanely tough draw from the same place in the CL. I won't say we have improved tons, but certainly we are better this year than last.

Regarding cost of players it's well and good to say you don't care what they cost, but the fact is that players that will make our team better than current aren't likely to come in at 2 million and more likely to be in the 10 million+ range.

Look I think you and BR and others have made good points, I agree with some (or even lots) of them. I have yet to be convinced that there is anyone available that we would want to have instead of Wenger. And I do think that any debate on Wenger leaving should at least include some level of who would be better and why. Mourinho? Hiddink?


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 Post subject: Re: Has Wenger's tenure run it's course ?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:43 pm 
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I remember hearing something about Pep Guardiola saying that he would like to replace Wenger, if he didnt say it, it was in one of the gossip columns or something. Mourinho should never be allowed near our club. for me this debate is about whether or not Wenger has had his chance, saying that he should stay in his job because we cant work out who to replace him with doesnt work for me at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Has Wenger's tenure run it's course ?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:51 pm 
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Anarion wrote:
Look I think you and BR and others have made good points, I agree with some (or even lots) of them. I have yet to be convinced that there is anyone available that we would want to have instead of Wenger. And I do think that any debate on Wenger leaving should at least include some level of who would be better and why. Mourinho? Hiddink?


OK, some names that spring to mind. What about then the very man last night who was in charge of Barcelona? Guardiola has said he would be interested in managing in England and he hasn't committed long term to Barcelona. I think its a realistic option.

If he is forced out of Madrid, Manuel Pellegrini is another option worth considering, as is Laurent Blanc who may relish the additional resources at his disposal providing he is not the next France manager.


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 Post subject: Re: Has Wenger's tenure run it's course ?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:03 pm 
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BR wrote:
I remember hearing something about Pep Guardiola saying that he would like to replace Wenger, if he didnt say it, it was in one of the gossip columns or something. Mourinho should never be allowed near our club. for me this debate is about whether or not Wenger has had his chance, saying that he should stay in his job because we cant work out who to replace him with doesnt work for me at all.


:D

The other side doesn't work for me at all because to me it sounds akin to saying we'll take someone who isn't as qualified just to be short of Wenger and that would be foolishness in my opinion. Too each their own I guess.

I didn't know Guardiola might be available, I suppose I could get behind that if need be. On the other hand he sort of inherited Barcelona and one does wonder if he'd be as successful without all that talent to work with. In his case I wonder if the team makes the manager great or the manager makes the team great.

I see Pellegrini as similar to Wenger, with a moderately successful team (Villareal) on a shoestring budget. He's had little time at Real to be judged on.

And I wonder about Blanc's tactics. I think they are dour and pragmatic. Perhaps they would be successful but they'd be boring to watch.

Still names to ponder at least and I appreciate that. My biggest concern is say we replace Wenger and the next man doesn't do the job. How long till he gets moved on? Or are we patient with no success just because it's the new manager? I have a feeling that if we move Wenger because we aren't winning trophies then why should we have patience with a new manager? Would hindsight suggest that Wenger's revolution that the new manager undid (possibly) have come good by then? Do we become a managerial revolving door like Chelsea and Real Madrid and likely Man City? I think Chip's views on Chelsea are relevant here. I think there's a lot to be said for long term stability and there's a lot of unconsidered ramifications to bringing in a new manager.


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 Post subject: Re: Has Wenger's tenure run it's course ?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:20 pm 
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Anarion wrote:
How have we stagnated? This year we are much improved from last year I think, certainly within closer distance to the title and one insanely tough draw from the same place in the CL. I won't say we have improved tons, but certainly we are better this year than last.

Unless by some miracle Chelsea and United slip up, then it looks like it will be 6 years without a trophy. Ive said already that Im not a trophy hunter, but 6 years for a club of our stature is far too long, Jesus even the have won a trophy during that period :wink: . So yeah we've improved since last year, we got closer than we did last year, so each year we're getting closer and better, and financially stable etc etc.... but do we give Wenger another 5 years in which to improve the team? To get closer and closer until we lose the title by one point and go into that next season with the believe that as we were only one point of the title this year, and well we've improved over the summer.... so that means that this year is our year?


Anarion wrote:
The other side doesn't work for me at all because to me it sounds akin to saying we'll take someone who isn't as qualified just to be short of Wenger and that would be foolishness in my opinion. Too each their own I guess.

Thats not at all what Im saying, I think myself and Tubz have shown that there are other managers that could do the job for us. Like you said though, each to their own

AdmiringArsene wrote:
But, are those asking for Wenger's departure in actuality really asking for an Oligarch to buy the team? I think you are. I think you look at Chelsea, Man City, and Man United spend all this money and 30 Million Pound strikers on a whim, and I think you're envious.

Im not envious of the money that they have avaliable, Im envious of their manager actually spending the money on players that WILL improve their squad. I would never want an Oligarch to control Arsenal, I want them to stay how they are financially, BUT I believe that a different manager could come in, make a few signings of his own, spend the money that we are constantly told is avaliable and improve the team


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 Post subject: Re: Has Wenger's tenure run it's course ?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 10:58 pm 
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BR wrote:
Quote:
Anarion wrote:
The other side doesn't work for me at all because to me it sounds akin to saying we'll take someone who isn't as qualified just to be short of Wenger and that would be foolishness in my opinion. Too each their own I guess.

Thats not at all what Im saying, I think myself and Tubz have shown that there are other managers that could do the job for us. Like you said though, each to their own

I think the quality of a potential replacement is a very valid point to make in this debate. As Anarion says, what would be the point in getting rid of Wenger if we realistically don't think anyone could do a better job? And personally, I think Arsene Wenger is the best man for our situation. That is partly because he has manufactured that situation himself by instilling his ethos of total football, youth culture and financial prudence; and that's not me trying to say Arsene Wenger has manouevred himself into a job for life here-the simple fact is the situation he has created is so unique that I don't think any other manager in the world could do it as well as he has, they simply don't have the relevant experience. I think because of this Arsene Wenger has become a bit untouchable at the club, whether he realises it or not. He could benefit from a strong number two who will be able to fight him on major decisions and tell him the things he's missed e.g. the need for a keeper, more CB cover. He could also do with improving his tactical game, we frequently have the players but lack the strategy to win a game.


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 Post subject: Re: Has Wenger's tenure run it's course ?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 11:46 pm 
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Have the club been over prudent financially?

No, not in my opinion when you look at the recession and what lies ahead in terms of UEFA's financial fair play objectives. We've been able to be top 4 despite being 14th in the financial pecking order. As Gazidis said nice numbers are no the objective but a means to it, so having done rather well in halving the clubs debt we are now strongly positioned to capitalise. Rivals will no longer be able to artificially spend beyond their means whilst United and Liverpool look weak in the medium term and maybe sooner. If we do nothing in the market we're stronger next term.

The club is going in the right direction on all levels, fan engagement, financially and on the field. Our points haul will be hugely improved on last term and the gap to the leaders won't be the 18 point gulf it was last season. We're going to have more funds available in future windows, our rivals will be weaker, legislation will play into our hands and our young squad will improve.

We do need to add to the squad. Wenger I think knows we're behind Barcelona by some way, he knows the limitations of what he has he's not deluded or motivated by a tidy balance sheet but he has a responsibility to be careful. If Wenger told us we were unlucky to lose at Barce and that he had no intention of strengthening the squad then we can say he is not the right man to take us forward. He knows what we need to do in the market and is able to act this summer, and to let's be fair he's been able to do that in recent seasons. Let's see what he can do with £40-50m which I believe we can invest this summer.

Trophies are not beyond us with two or three quality signings and Wenger is the right man to lead us to that. 6 years without a trophy tells you nothing of the context.

The team are well placed to move forward, we've made massive progress on and off the field and further forward movement is logical and likely. I don't think anyone would have thought we'd be 3 points off the title with 5 to play at the beginning of the year, and especially not with the injuries we have had.


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 Post subject: Re: Has Wenger's tenure run it's course ?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:48 am 
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adampembrey wrote:
.For me, supporting Arsenal isn't about collecting trophies, its about enjoyment, entertainment and pride, under Arsene Wenger we get a heavy dose of all of these every year.


For me, supporting Arsenal is 100% about collecting trophies, I grew up with us winning and everyone saying we were crap and didn't deserve it but we could give two fingers to the world. This current side entertains me at times, very often, and it is nice that we entertain and we're the neutrals favourite but I would love a trophy. I don't care if no-one like us but I want silverware. But at one stage, I wanted people to like us, just for a time, people would look at us and say they play good football and Wenger delivered that. Never happy, I suppose. That period 1998 to 2005 was brilliant and I thank him for that.

I like Wenger and dislike him also. I understand he has information that we are not privy to. But to have a guy like Silvestre in against Barcelona, I cannot fathom the reasoning and why Lorik Cana was dismissed though he would have cost nothing. I still think that there are players out there who could improve the squad and they are overlooked. The fact that Lloris is at Lyon and not with us is inexcusable, Drogba at Chelsea, we turned him down at Guingamp, Ribery, judged not good enough at Metz. I repeat myself, but Wenger's eye for talent has not been what it was. Maybe he has too much on his plate but you can build a squad and not spend a fortune. I think the question is not how much you spend but on what you spend.

I can't contribute to this thread because at times, I want him to go but I fear the consequences of it. I don't believe in the "Arsene we trust" because I don't believe we'll win a trophy with him but I fear a future without him.

As for pride, I don't feel proud, getting trashed every time against our main rivals is tough to take.

But losing against mediocre sides and scrapping for crumbs would be a lot worse.


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 Post subject: Re: Has Wenger's tenure run it's course ?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 1:36 am 
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Thats all fair enough, I don't mean to suggest that winning trophies is irrelevent, its not its amazing, I love winning things, I want us to win the league cup every year.

The thing is though I wouldn't be happy to win it like Chelsea did under Morinho, spending beyond our means and playing bland bland football.

I'm not so young that I don't remember the Graham days, I remember the 3 cups we won in 93 and 94. I enjoyed those as much as 98-2005, but even then we did things the right way, we played that way because we had Morrow, Hillier and Jensen in midfield, even Keown sometimes.

People didn't like us then and they don't like us now, and I love it, they can swivel.

Mr Wenger has changed my outlook on football, if we went back to that style of play I wouldn't enjoy it as much, though I'd still support the team because its in my blood.

I don't want Arsene to leave because I'm happy with him, could we do better? Hell yeah but I want us to do better with him.


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 Post subject: Re: Has Wenger's tenure run it's course ?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 3:36 am 
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Quote:
(BR:) Folks, part of this is just about me creating debate here, but we all know what Wenger has done in the past, we are all proud of it and he will be an Arsenal legend, but can someone tell me what he is doing for us at the minute? Is it not the same thing that he has been for the past 5 years with no sucess?


Sort of restating what I said before, but BR is right about one thing - forget about the past. The invincibles are 6 years past now. That's a long time. The only question that is relevant to Wenger's future is the one of the present - is he the best man for the job right now or could we do better? Just like with players.

Wenger is not God and all this Wenger-worship nonsense has no place in a rational debate. Praise him by all means, love him by all means, but that's different.

Of course, that said, I still think he's the best we can have. New manager doesn't solve problems straight away, often it creates more. We've got a squad that is very nearly there - as Anarion said, the Vermaelen, Nasri, Arshavin buys, as well as the almost certainly true bid for Xavi Alonso, show Wenger is starting to get with the program and work out what is an appropriate level of investment for Arsenal in this day and age. We are just one or two short - and without the injury crisis from hell's bowels we wouldn't even be one or two short.

Main thing for me is to keep on progressing. Tubz is right here - we've had very very badly managed transfer windows under Wenger the last few years. We've unloaded a huge amount of players - Adebayor, Reyes, Hleb, Diarra, Flamini, Toure, Cole, they could almost field a first XI of the players that have come in to build our new squad and have left. For some of these it was inevitable, but I think the most important thing is to have the right summer. Not a summer where we sell 2 and buy 2 (all those people harping on about selling Arshavin, I'm looking at you), a summer where we actually come out better. If Wenger can't manage that, though, then as tubzinho says, we'll be stuck in the third-fourth zone.


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 Post subject: Re: Has Wenger's tenure run it's course ?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:48 am 
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Tubzinho wrote:
-Jk- wrote:
Do you not think he has realised that too one extent though? You only have to look at the age of our team now to what it was two or three years ago and you can see a difference. Bringing in Gallas, Campbell, Arshavin, Eduardo, all shows that he is willing to bring in experience if he thinks its needed, and perhaps thats something he is learning.


You could argue that point but you could also argue the point that at times his hand has been forced and he has had to bring in players to replace the ones he has let go in order for Arsenal to even reach the bare minimum objective, a top four finish. He had to sign Rosicky because Pires left, he had to sign Eduardo because Henry left, he had to sign Nasri because Hleb left you could even say he had to sign Campbell in January because Toure left. Seldomly has he bought to reinforce the squad.


Tubz, you can't say Wenger has let players go. These players wanted to leave the club. There is no point in keeping players who don't want to be here. I think he was unfortunate with the likes of Hleb, Flamini, etc because they decided to jump ship at last minute and the former was pretty damn cheeky with the way he went about things. Most of the time when a player has left it was usually either the right time for him to go or the player wanted to go on his own accord. I think we have done really well and have competed despite everyone being against us. We have answered the critics on a number of occasions and will continue to do so. This squad is definitely going places and with a few additions and a bit of good luck we will no doubt be flying within the next few seasons.


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 Post subject: Re: Has Wenger's tenure run it's course ?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:19 am 
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arcaliea wrote:
Tubz is right here - we've had very very badly managed transfer windows under Wenger the last few years. We've unloaded a huge amount of players - Adebayor, Reyes, Hleb, Diarra, Flamini, Toure, Cole, they could almost field a first XI of the players that have come in to build our new squad and have left. For some of these it was inevitable, but I think the most important thing is to have the right summer. Not a summer where we sell 2 and buy 2 (all those people harping on about selling Arshavin, I'm looking at you), a summer where we actually come out better. If Wenger can't manage that, though, then as tubzinho says, we'll be stuck in the third-fourth zone.


Arcaliea Wenger has not managed any transfer badly. What can you do if a player wants to leave. You cannot hold a gun to his head and force him to stay. These players left because they wanted to go. It has just been unfortunate that they did not stick around long enough for us to gain a stable and strong squad. I would rather have players who want to be here and want to play for the club than players who just start panicking and jump ship as soon as the likes of Barca and Real come hovering around.


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 Post subject: Re: Has Wenger's tenure run it's course ?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:38 am 
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On a case by case basis, and with the limited information we have, indeed, at least some of these departures were inevitable. The manager cannot take responsibility if a player suddenly thinks he's the hot shots or just throws out all the toys in the pram. However, if you look at the general trend over the last few transfer windows, those results the manager does take responsibility for.

So in general, what have we done? We've gotten rid of enough players to field a pretty good premier league first XI; we've brought in some players as good or arguably better; but in general we've let go too many players in comparison to the players we brought in, and we've never been able to gradually bulk up and improve the squad. That does lie at the feet of Arsene Wenger.

I do agree with you when you say

Quote:
This squad is definitely going places and with a few additions and a bit of good luck we will no doubt be flying within the next few seasons.


But that doesn't make this untrue. Wenger should have seen our injuries coming after already having about 3 seasons blighted with them, Wenger should have been a bit more robust in the transfer market. He's starting to do so now, I think, and that's why I hold that this summer will be very important.


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 Post subject: Re: Has Wenger's tenure run it's course ?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 7:02 am 
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I think a lot of this debate stems from the media. They continually drum it into our heads about 5 years without a trophy blah blah blah, Arsenal play pretty football but no trophies blah blah blah but yet many of the pundits and journalists have had to eat their words this season. I remember when we had the squad strength and season expectations thread and people were talking about us lingering in 5th or 6th place, watching thursday night football next season, and struggling big time this season. But yet we have proved all the doubters wrong by still being in the title running and reaching the Chamapions League quarter finals.
Players who were deemed not good enough for the club have made BIG strides (ie) Song, Diaby, Eboue, Denilson. Vermaelen was deemed too small and he has been one of the best defenders in the league this season. Fabregas has improved his scoring form this season.
The club is blatantly moving in the right direction but people are too interested in what the Sun newspaper, Alan Hansen, and those crappy sky sports pundits have got to say rather than the positives. I remember watching MOTD and hansen had to eat his words when he previously wrote us off in the title race, same for Jamie redknapp, same goes for Andy Gray. The team are developing nicely but we just need to be patient and not put pressure on either the players. There is no club in the world who would not love to have Wenger at the helm. Every year Real Madrid try to entice him and that is a compliment as far as i'm concerned. Around the world we are known for our beautiful football, notable players have wanted to play for us ie David Villa because of this. It is Wenger that has brought all this to the club and you have to give the guy a lot of respect for that. Dont you guys think it would be even sweeter if we won the title with such a young squad, to prove all the newspapers, media pundits, bloggers, and doubters wrong. I don't think losing games to our rivals and the best tem in the world should lead us to question Wenger's tenure. I would say that is pretty disrespectful to be honest.


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