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 Post subject: Re: Sanchez / Ozil Contract Situation
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 4:58 pm 
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Jules wrote:
block132 wrote:
I don't buy all this Jules, didn't Sanchez leave Barcelona because he wasn't the main man, ditto Ozil constantly getting subbed at Real.

...and when they are playing as in their current form there isn't a huge gap between their team mates, in fact there is no gap at all, they are worse.

I have no doubt any delays are all about money even if they come out and say differently.

This team finished 2nd last year not mid table... maybe the pair of them should be dragging the rest of their mates up to finish first, as D.Costa has been, ditto Messi for years, Ronaldo, Aguero etc... making the difference not hiding when it's crunch time.

I think there's a middle ground between being subbed quite often and being one of the two pillars that are expected to hold everything together.

It's too easy to expect them to carry the team week in, week out, just because they may have wanted to play a more important role when they left their last clubs. I cannot imagine Wenger promising them "You are going to be our two main men, the course of our season will lie in your hands." Isn't it more likely that they were promised a more competitive team in which they are key players, but not the only two world class players? We have never built this competitive team.

As for the players you mention that dragged their teams: apart from the fact that two of them are the best players of their generation, your examples prove my point. All of them had a better team to fall back on, and to push them. Do you really think Ramsey, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Walcott, ... - you name them - would play for Barcelona, Madrid, or even City and Chelsea?


So a team that can finish in the top 4 for the last 20 years isn't competitive? and haven't we always said we needed just one or two signings and we'd win the league?


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 Post subject: Re: Sanchez / Ozil Contract Situation
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:29 pm 
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I still think we have the best squad in the league all-round.

If we could set the bastards up to play with any sort of intensity, we'd be a major threat.


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 Post subject: Re: Sanchez / Ozil Contract Situation
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:55 pm 
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block132 wrote:
So a team that can finish in the top 4 for the last 20 years isn't competitive? and haven't we always said we needed just one or two signings and we'd win the league?

I said promised a more competitive team. That's not to say that we're not competitive at all. ;-)

That being said, we're not competitive in terms of winning the title, no.


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 Post subject: Re: Sanchez / Ozil Contract Situation
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:45 am 
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LoneGunner wrote:
I still think we have the best squad in the league all-round.

If we could set the bastards up to play with any sort of intensity, we'd be a major threat.


I agree but don't know what more can be done, look at the size of our backroom staff, they've got everything covered, including a shrink.

I suppose if it isn't in you to do that week in week out, it just isn't in you...

...and maybe if you do have it you lose it the moment you have £10, £20 plus million in the bank??


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 Post subject: Re: Sanchez / Ozil Contract Situation
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:56 am 
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Jules wrote:
block132 wrote:
So a team that can finish in the top 4 for the last 20 years isn't competitive? and haven't we always said we needed just one or two signings and we'd win the league?

I said promised a more competitive team. That's not to say that we're not competitive at all. ;-)

That being said, we're not competitive in terms of winning the title, no.


:) so how many points do we have to finish behind the winners to have been deemed being competitive? second obviously was not enough.


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 Post subject: Re: Sanchez / Ozil Contract Situation
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:58 pm 
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block132 wrote:
:) so how many points do we have to finish behind the winners to have been deemed being competitive? second obviously was not enough.

I mean, we're obviously digressing here, but being second 10 points behind the winners is not competitive, no. And surely I don't need to remind you that we only made it to 2nd place at all because of the miraculous stupidity of a certain unnamed team. ;)

In the last ten seasons we finished

2nd and 10 points behind the winners
3rd and 13 points behind the winners
4th and 7 points behind the winners
4th and 16 points behind the winners
3rd and 19 points behind the winners
4th and 12 points behind the winners
3rd and 11 points behind the winners
4th and 18 points behind the winners
3rd and 4 points behind the winners
4th and 21 points behind the winners

I would say that finishing 4 points behind the winners is competitive, anything else... not really. I don't want to downplay the achievement of finishing in the top 4 so consistently. This is a serious achievement, and one that is solely down to Wenger. But we have never been competing for the title. On average, we've been a whopping 13 points behind the respective winners in the last 10 years!

Add to that our Champions League campaigns in that period, which I cannot be bothered to check but we all remember our famous attempts to get past Bayern and Barcelona and progress to the quarter finals, and we do not look like a team that is competitive at the top level.


To slowly come back to the topic of this thread: My initial point was that, maybe, Özil and Sanchez have been promised a more competitive team when we have signed them. A team that is indeed competing for the league title and not for Champions League places. In my opinion, it's pretty obvious that this has not happened.


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 Post subject: Re: Sanchez / Ozil Contract Situation
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:23 pm 
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Jules wrote:
block132 wrote:
:) so how many points do we have to finish behind the winners to have been deemed being competitive? second obviously was not enough.

I mean, we're obviously digressing here, but being second 10 points behind the winners is not competitive, no. And surely I don't need to remind you that we only made it to 2nd place at all because of the miraculous stupidity of a certain unnamed team. ;)

In the last ten seasons we finished

2nd and 10 points behind the winners
3rd and 13 points behind the winners
4th and 7 points behind the winners
4th and 16 points behind the winners
3rd and 19 points behind the winners
4th and 12 points behind the winners
3rd and 11 points behind the winners
4th and 18 points behind the winners
3rd and 4 points behind the winners
4th and 21 points behind the winners

I would say that finishing 4 points behind the winners is competitive, anything else... not really. I don't want to downplay the achievement of finishing in the top 4 so consistently. This is a serious achievement, and one that is solely down to Wenger. But we have never been competing for the title. On average, we've been a whopping 13 points behind the respective winners in the last 10 years!

Add to that our Champions League campaigns in that period, which I cannot be bothered to check but we all remember our famous attempts to get past Bayern and Barcelona and progress to the quarter finals, and we do not look like a team that is competitive at the top level.


To slowly come back to the topic of this thread: My initial point was that, maybe, Özil and Sanchez have been promised a more competitive team when we have signed them. A team that is indeed competing for the league title and not for Champions League places. In my opinion, it's pretty obvious that this has not happened.


We'll have to agree to disagree on this one Jules, my view is that a "whopping" 13 points is really only 4 games and a draw over the course of 38 games that's not a "whopping" lot, to me anyway. 10%, that's two players worth! :D


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 Post subject: Re: Sanchez / Ozil Contract Situation
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 6:07 pm 
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block132 wrote:
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one Jules, my view is that a "whopping" 13 points is really only 4 games and a draw over the course of 38 games that's not a "whopping" lot, to me anyway. 10%, that's two players worth! :D

Fair enough, let's agree to disagree then.

If you think that we have indeed been competing for the title in the last seasons, what do you think is the reason that Özil's and Sanchez' contract extensions seem to be stalling? Do they think that we're not competitive enough? Is it just a question of money? Is it about Wenger's future?


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 Post subject: Re: Sanchez / Ozil Contract Situation
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 11:38 pm 
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Jules wrote:
block132 wrote:
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one Jules, my view is that a "whopping" 13 points is really only 4 games and a draw over the course of 38 games that's not a "whopping" lot, to me anyway. 10%, that's two players worth! :D

Fair enough, let's agree to disagree then.

If you think that we have indeed been competing for the title in the last seasons, what do you think is the reason that Özil's and Sanchez' contract extensions seem to be stalling? Do they think that we're not competitive enough? Is it just a question of money? Is it about Wenger's future?


I'm pretty sure it's Wenger. Ozil i'm sure said publicly he wants more clarification on the manager's position before he commits. Bare in mind this will also be his last big contract before his stock slowly decreases so i can understand why he would delay things.


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 Post subject: Re: Sanchez / Ozil Contract Situation
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:59 am 
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Team South East wrote:
Jules wrote:
block132 wrote:
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one Jules, my view is that a "whopping" 13 points is really only 4 games and a draw over the course of 38 games that's not a "whopping" lot, to me anyway. 10%, that's two players worth! :D

Fair enough, let's agree to disagree then.

If you think that we have indeed been competing for the title in the last seasons, what do you think is the reason that Özil's and Sanchez' contract extensions seem to be stalling? Do they think that we're not competitive enough? Is it just a question of money? Is it about Wenger's future?


I'm pretty sure it's Wenger. Ozil i'm sure said publicly he wants more clarification on the manager's position before he commits. Bare in mind this will also be his last big contract before his stock slowly decreases so i can understand why he would delay things.


For me it's mostly about the money.

If it was all about titles they could have both stayed at Barca and Real and would I am sure have won plenty, those two take it in turns to win the league and cup, plus the Champions league more often than not.

Ok they may have come to us for more game time but I'd wager you we paid them more than they were earning at their respective clubs.

I suspect they see the wages being offered in China (£750K a week for Rooney, allegedly) and it would only be natural to want some of that !! or certainly be using it as leverage.


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 Post subject: Re: Sanchez / Ozil Contract Situation
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:00 am 
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block132 wrote:
For me it's mostly about the money.

If it was all about titles they could have both stayed at Barca and Real and would I am sure have won plenty, those two take it in turns to win the league and cup, plus the Champions league more often than not.

Just for the record: My point was not that they want titles per se, but a team that actually competes for titles and shows real ambition to win them. One thing is "just" silverware, in which case they could indeed have stayed at Barca and Real, but the other thing is sporting ambition. I think we don't match their sporting ambition, and I imagine that they have been promised a more competitive team.

That being said, I think more money could compensate for a lack of competitiveness, and Wenger's future is certainly playing a role as well, at least for Özil. This makes Wenger's caginess about his future even more irresponsible, but there you go.


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 Post subject: Re: Sanchez / Ozil Contract Situation
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:38 am 
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Jules wrote:
block132 wrote:
For me it's mostly about the money.

If it was all about titles they could have both stayed at Barca and Real and would I am sure have won plenty, those two take it in turns to win the league and cup, plus the Champions league more often than not.

Just for the record: My point was not that they want titles per se, but a team that actually competes for titles and shows real ambition to win them. One thing is "just" silverware, in which case they could indeed have stayed at Barca and Real, but the other thing is sporting ambition. I think we don't match their sporting ambition, and I imagine that they have been promised a more competitive team.

That being said, I think more money could compensate for a lack of competitiveness, and Wenger's future is certainly playing a role as well, at least for Özil. This makes Wenger's caginess about his future even more irresponsible, but there you go.


Jules, that just makes no sense to me at all, so to miss out on the title on goal difference every season will be OK by them and you I assume? and then to have a go at Arsene for not having these deals done and dusted takes the biscuit. Maybe he wants to take them both with him to his new club, have you thought of that and Bellerin and anyone else that takes his fancy?

You know what, if that was me i'd be trying to stitch up the abusive and ungrateful fans at this club bigtime. Don't bother with the counter arguments on this, I've really have heard them all.


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 Post subject: Re: Sanchez / Ozil Contract Situation
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:15 am 
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block132 wrote:
Jules, that just makes no sense to me at all, so to miss out on the title on goal difference every season will be OK by them and you I assume?

No, I didn't say that. You said "if it was all about titles, they could have stayed at Barca and Real", and I replied that leaving guaranteed silverware doesn't mean that they have no sporting ambition at all, or that they would be content with being also-rans year after year. I think an important part of the contract talks stalling is that we don't match their ambition, and that's entirely possible even though they left two very successful and ambitious clubs.

block132 wrote:
and then to have a go at Arsene for not having these deals done and dusted takes the biscuit. Maybe he wants to take them both with him to his new club, have you thought of that and Bellerin and anyone else that takes his fancy?

Wenger constantly tells us how important Arsenal is to him, how all he wants is the club that he has been working at for so long to be successful. I believe every word of this. Arsenal is quite obviously the project of his life. Which is why I would be shocked if he left and took Özil, Sanchez (and others) with him. It would be a massive "fuck you" to the club, and I don't think he is capable of doing that. Apparently you wouldn't put it past him.

block132 wrote:
You know what, if that was me i'd be trying to stitch up the abusive and ungrateful fans at this club bigtime. Don't bother with the counter arguments on this, I've really have heard them all.

Who are you talking about? If you think he doesn't deserve the abuse he is getting from some fans then we're on the same page. If you think that what I have been saying was abusive and ungrateful then don't tiptoe around it like that.


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 Post subject: Re: Sanchez / Ozil Contract Situation
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:27 pm 
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Jules wrote:
block132 wrote:
Jules, that just makes no sense to me at all, so to miss out on the title on goal difference every season will be OK by them and you I assume?

No, I didn't say that. You said "if it was all about titles, they could have stayed at Barca and Real", and I replied that leaving guaranteed silverware doesn't mean that they have no sporting ambition at all, or that they would be content with being also-rans year after year. I think an important part of the contract talks stalling is that we don't match their ambition, and that's entirely possible even though they left two very successful and ambitious clubs.

block132 wrote:
and then to have a go at Arsene for not having these deals done and dusted takes the biscuit. Maybe he wants to take them both with him to his new club, have you thought of that and Bellerin and anyone else that takes his fancy?

Wenger constantly tells us how important Arsenal is to him, how all he wants is the club that he has been working at for so long to be successful. I believe every word of this. Arsenal is quite obviously the project of his life. Which is why I would be shocked if he left and took Özil, Sanchez (and others) with him. It would be a massive "fuck you" to the club, and I don't think he is capable of doing that. Apparently you wouldn't put it past him.

block132 wrote:
You know what, if that was me i'd be trying to stitch up the abusive and ungrateful fans at this club bigtime. Don't bother with the counter arguments on this, I've really have heard them all.

Who are you talking about? If you think he doesn't deserve the abuse he is getting from some fans then we're on the same page. If you think that what I have been saying was abusive and ungrateful then don't tiptoe around it like that.


No Jules, of course not you, re my last paragraph, unless I've missed something and for sure I would not tip toe around it if it was. :) I think I make me feelings clear enough on a face to face basis. Everyone is entitled to their opinions though of course.

What Arsene says in a press conference and what he really feels I would imagine are two completely different things.

He wouldn't be human if he didn't feel slighted by what some say.


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 Post subject: Re: Sanchez / Ozil Contract Situation
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:34 pm 
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block132 wrote:
No Jules, of course not you, re my last paragraph, unless I've missed something and for sure I would not tip toe around it if it was. :) I think I make me feelings clear enough on a face to face basis. Everyone is entitled to their opinions though of course.

:thumbup:


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