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 Post subject: Re: Manchester United
PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 11:26 am 
SloppyGooner wrote:
Tevez got 5 league goals, and scored 15 in total and got 7 assits. Considering he only started 34 of their games its not bad. He scored 14 the season before in the league aswell.

Tevez is more than 3x the player Owen is.
He got 5 league goals in 29 appearances which is rubbish by any standard. It only gets bumped up to 15 by including various Mickey Mouse cups. He's basically an Argentine version of Alan Smith.


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 Post subject: Re: Manchester United
PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 11:36 am 
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LoneGunner wrote:
People go on about how weak the Newcastle team was, the pressure he was under. Rubbish. If Michael Owen is half the player he is supposed to still be, he would score his goals and create his chances regardless of the players around him.



Well I don't think the comment can be written off as rubbish. Owen has scored 26 goals in 71 games for Newcastle. He scored 1 in 4 of all their goals last season despite being in and out of the side. Considering that they have been a poor side throughout his time there and his appearances have been stop start due to his recurrent injuries I don't see that as being too bad. The idea that a good striker will score bagfuls no matter where he is is flawed. A poor side will create less chances and Owen is not the sort of player who will fashion his own chances, he relies on chances being created for him. This has not really been something he's had at Newcastle. In his last two league seasons at Newcastle Shearer scored 7 and 10.


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 Post subject: Re: Manchester United
PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 11:52 am 
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The transfer window has barely begun, Man U still have cash to spend, a strong squad, a brilliant manager, this is hardly going to concern them. Yes Ronaldo blow is a huge loss but so was Beckham, Stam, RVN, Valencia is a good player and will alter their play somewhat, Ferguson will have confidence in his squad to spread the goals around more. With Tevez, £25 million for a hardworking 15 goal a season striker? Not a huge loss, they could have got Nic cheaper and without the ownership problems. Owen is a gamble, come off an awful season and very injury prone, made worse by the time it takes for him to come back into form but maybe under a skilled manager again, he can find the spark he had even just a season before that. They do have talented 4th and 5th choice strikers but might want to add another option there just in case given Owen's fitness record

Man U are still the team to beat in England even with their losses.


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 Post subject: Re: Manchester United
PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 1:21 pm 
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Skoosh wrote:
A poor side will create less chances and Owen is not the sort of player who will fashion his own chances, he relies on chances being created for him. This has not really been something he's had at Newcastle. In his last two league seasons at Newcastle Shearer scored 7 and 10.


That Newcastle side is not as bad as its being made out, and chances for their strikers are more plentiful than numerous of the bottom 6-8 sides. They scored as many last season as any club from 11th downwards (1 less than Bolton) and have a lot of decent players who just did not perform as well as they should. Owen sure wasn't starved of chances, not like the Boro forwards for example.

Owen has played countless times for England, hundreds of Premier League game, Champions League, FA Cup finals, for the most prestigious club in Europe....but the pressure stifled him at Newcastle? He didn't have that much pressure, he certainly wasn't seen as the 'clubs saviour' given his injury record and most Geordies just expected him to break down at any moment.

I find him quite a selfish character, who seems to care about a) Michael Owen, b) England....and then the club he currently plays for is a distant third, and the fans who are paying his wages are barely a consideration.


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 Post subject: Re: Manchester United
PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 1:49 pm 
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LoneGunner wrote:
Skoosh wrote:
A poor side will create less chances and Owen is not the sort of player who will fashion his own chances, he relies on chances being created for him. This has not really been something he's had at Newcastle. In his last two league seasons at Newcastle Shearer scored 7 and 10.


That Newcastle side is not as bad as its being made out, and chances for their strikers are more plentiful than numerous of the bottom 6-8 sides. They scored as many last season as any club from 11th downwards (1 less than Bolton) and have a lot of decent players who just did not perform as well as they should. Owen sure wasn't starved of chances, not like the Boro forwards for example.

Owen has played countless times for England, hundreds of Premier League game, Champions League, FA Cup finals, for the most prestigious club in Europe....but the pressure stifled him at Newcastle? He didn't have that much pressure, he certainly wasn't seen as the 'clubs saviour' given his injury record and most Geordies just expected him to break down at any moment.

I find him quite a selfish character, who seems to care about a) Michael Owen, b) England....and then the club he currently plays for is a distant third, and the fans who are paying his wages are barely a consideration.


Well in fairness I never used the excuse of pressure to mitigate Owen, simply that when he played at all he did so in a poor side. I don't have figures to hand about goalscoring chances Newcastle created, I doubt if such a stat is even collated, but Newcastle have been a poor side throughout Owen's time there and even Shearer struggled for goalscoring form during his last two seasons. That may have been partly due to him being on the wane himself but I think a big part of it can be attributed to the quality around him.


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 Post subject: Re: Manchester United
PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 2:42 pm 
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Skoosh wrote:
even Shearer struggled for goalscoring form during his last two seasons. That may have been partly due to him being on the wane himself but I think a big part of it can be attributed to the quality around him.


To me that would be Shearer's own lack of physical ability. He was what, 35-36 when he retired? Actually, 10 league goals in his final season averaging one-in-three is a pretty good return for a player who had all but lost his ability to run and was limited to being a physical target-man.

Owen isn't at that level of degradation, and although he's lost his searing pace the guy can still run, still pull defenders out of position, and do enough to work himself into goalscoring positions and finish them off.

To me, though, I just have an aversion to his ego and seeming lack of desire. Owen is a big game player. The number of goals he scored for Newcastle in 2009 to the end of the season? One. He missed about 4 games, and also featured as a sub I think twice, but by and large he was available for selection in the run in. His team are up shit-creek and needed a big money buy on joke wages to finally step up and salvage the club. Instead Owen was outscored by Martins (who gets dogs abuse), outscored by Peter Lovenkrands, and outscored 3-1 by Steven Taylor at centreback!

Newcastle needed Owen to step up. Owen stepped down.

To digress for a moment, not that there's ever any justice in football anyway, but it dismays me that someone who put in the minimal effort for a relegated club signs for the Champions. I wish Michael Owen no success, he is a self-centred little oik who shafted Liverpool on his Bosman, did nothing to assist Newcastle when they needed him, and cares not one iota for his fans.

He'll score a few goals for the Mancs, I have no doubt about that, but unfortunately for England he'll never return to his former level.


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 Post subject: Re: Manchester United
PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 2:59 pm 
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LoneGunner wrote:
he is a self-centred little oik who shafted Liverpool on his Bosman


I don't get how he is supposed to have shafted Liverpool by wanting to leave for a more glamorous club, not like with Cisse and Baros, that Liverpool didn't have big name strikers to fill in for him.

You hate Owen because he had a dreadful season and due to personality of a guy you have... have you met him personally enough to get a good idea?


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 Post subject: Re: Manchester United
PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 6:21 pm 
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Location: Let's all laugh at Tottenham, let's all laugh at Tottenham!
I guess LG doesn't but the video recently posted on here of his old show does give some evidence.


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 Post subject: Re: Manchester United
PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 7:19 pm 
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Magic Hat wrote:
I don't get how he is supposed to have shafted Liverpool by wanting to leave for a more glamorous club, not like with Cisse and Baros, that Liverpool didn't have big name strikers to fill in for him.

You hate Owen because he had a dreadful season and due to personality of a guy you have... have you met him personally enough to get a good idea?


Re; Liverpool, he claimed time and again way in advance of his departure that he was willing to sign a new contract, and that never materialised as the time ran down. I'm quite sure Liverpool would have sold him if they knew there was a fair chance a contract wouldn't be signed, and ended up getting the £10m or so that a club would have perhaps paid to take him before he became open-market.

To me, at the time, it looked for all the world like he was stalling and deceiving the club to get the exact move he wanted. Reckon there's a lot of Scouse fans who would feel that way too.

Not sure where this idea of 'hate' has come into the conversation. I don't hate footballers, they really aren't that important to me. Maybe in person he's quite a nice fellow, I don't know. But thats not the context; the context is that I dislike him for his attitude, his ego, and the fact he had a crap season at a time when my home-town club needed someone of his prowess and achievements most, whilst displaying a distinct lack of consideration, knowing that he would get a move regardless. After bleeding millions from the club in terms of transfer fee's, signing on fee's, and hefty wages, I don't think its at all unreasonable to demand an impact from a player who is supposed to be a top striker?

Poor form I can sympathise with - poor effort? No. Not from Owen, not from Adebayor, not from Bendtner, not from any pampered princess of a footballer.

Some players bleed for their shirt (Gerrard and Fowler would probably rather live in cardboard boxes on the streets of Toxteth than play for Utd) but Michael Owen doesn't seem to care about anything other than Michael Owen.

(no I haven't met him, but if that was a prerequisite of making comments on players on this site you may as well close the entire Opinions Board, Transfer Rumours Board etc...)


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 Post subject: Re: Manchester United
PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 10:57 pm 
LoneGunner wrote:
Magic Hat wrote:
I don't get how he is supposed to have shafted Liverpool by wanting to leave for a more glamorous club, not like with Cisse and Baros, that Liverpool didn't have big name strikers to fill in for him.

You hate Owen because he had a dreadful season and due to personality of a guy you have... have you met him personally enough to get a good idea?


Re; Liverpool, he claimed time and again way in advance of his departure that he was willing to sign a new contract, and that never materialised as the time ran down. I'm quite sure Liverpool would have sold him if they knew there was a fair chance a contract wouldn't be signed, and ended up getting the £10m or so that a club would have perhaps paid to take him before he became open-market.

To me, at the time, it looked for all the world like he was stalling and deceiving the club to get the exact move he wanted. Reckon there's a lot of Scouse fans who would feel that way too.

Not sure where this idea of 'hate' has come into the conversation. I don't hate footballers, they really aren't that important to me. Maybe in person he's quite a nice fellow, I don't know. But thats not the context; the context is that I dislike him for his attitude, his ego, and the fact he had a crap season at a time when my home-town club needed someone of his prowess and achievements most, whilst displaying a distinct lack of consideration, knowing that he would get a move regardless. After bleeding millions from the club in terms of transfer fee's, signing on fee's, and hefty wages, I don't think its at all unreasonable to demand an impact from a player who is supposed to be a top striker?

Poor form I can sympathise with - poor effort? No. Not from Owen, not from Adebayor, not from Bendtner, not from any pampered princess of a footballer.

Some players bleed for their shirt (Gerrard and Fowler would probably rather live in cardboard boxes on the streets of Toxteth than play for Utd) but Michael Owen doesn't seem to care about anything other than Michael Owen.

(no I haven't met him, but if that was a prerequisite of making comments on players on this site you may as well close the entire Opinions Board, Transfer Rumours Board etc...)


Spot on LG, i can not disagree with any of your sentiments.

I think there is an ulterior motive behind this purchase in the fact that Man Utd are circa 650 million in debt. All this talk of Villa, Ribery et al is total delusionist ramblings from fans who clearly do not realise how in hoc their club are.

Most of Ronaldo's fee will go to debt maintainance, Tevez was not signed so as to reduce the wage bill. Valencia's signing actually cost a lot less than the 18 million reported that figure will only be reached if certain milestones are met.

For me this transfer window has signalled that financial trouble is brewing at both Man United and Liverpool anyone hoping either of them do a Leeds??


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 Post subject: Re: Manchester United
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 1:40 am 
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theoracle wrote:
For me this transfer window has signalled that financial trouble is brewing at both Man United and Liverpool anyone hoping either of them do a Leeds??


I would love to see ManU do a Leeds. That might finally shut up some of there fans. Doubt it will get that bad for them as they make to much money on merchandising, but one can hope!


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 Post subject: Re: Manchester United
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 11:41 am 
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LoneGunner wrote:
To digress for a moment, not that there's ever any justice in football anyway, but it dismays me that someone who put in the minimal effort for a relegated club signs for the Champions. I wish Michael Owen no success, he is a self-centred little oik who shafted Liverpool on his Bosman, did nothing to assist Newcastle when they needed him, and cares not one iota for his fans.


That seems rather hatey. I don't see how not calling someone an oik who you didn't actually know would stop transfer speculation.

We are talking about a Liverpool board who were not wildly mourned when Hicks and Gillet took over and when Parry left, the made the joy over CL victory seemed small in comparison. So we have Owen, his contract still not renewed at Liverpool in it's worst state for some time with a manager who was unproven in England, an incompetent board and during that year, Real Madrid come on. Who would you rather play with, Rual and Beckham for the Real Madrid side back then or a side that would finish 5th before Benetiz began rebuilding the side? Do Liverpool fans hate Owen (before Man U move)? Yes, passionately and then bemoan that they only had the Euro championships top scorer and an expensive striker to replace him.

Players suffer bad seasons, Owen ended up under three managers, playing as a deeper striker or in a 4-3-3 in a team were either you had to have the trickery of Martins/Lovenkrans or be strong in the air, aka Taylor or Carrol to score. Owen had an awful season in a team unsuited to getting the best of out him, it happens.

LoneGunner wrote:
Some players bleed for their shirt (Gerrard and Fowler would probably rather live in cardboard boxes on the streets of Toxteth than play for Utd)


Owen's an Everton fan who, Rooney aside, don't seem to have much of a problem with Man U. I like players who want to reach the highest levels and certainly going to Real and Man U gives any player a chance to do that


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 Post subject: Re: Manchester United
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 1:59 pm 
I don't think you can justify Owen running down his contract to engineer a cut price move. It may be instructive that the players who most notably shafted their previous clubs to come to us (Campbell and Flamini) ended up shafting us too.


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 Post subject: Re: Manchester United
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 3:57 pm 
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Magic Hat wrote:
That seems rather hatey. I don't see how not calling someone an oik who you didn't actually know would stop transfer speculation.


What I meant is that if you had to know the absolute personality of a player when making personal comments, then nobody could ever really call Eboue, Bendtner, Adebayor, Arshavin (pre-move) et al. We all judge as fairly as possible based on the evidence available, and in my opinion the evidence points only to one thing for Owen. Its not something I usually involve myself in, but on this occasion I am pretty convinced.

Magic Hat wrote:
Who would you rather play with, Rual and Beckham for the Real Madrid side back then or a side that would finish 5th before Benetiz began rebuilding the side?


The issue is the manner in which Owen appears to string along his current employers - and the fans who have showered him with adulation and paid his wages for years - not that he actually left Liverpool for Madrid. Which a lot of players would have done.

Magic Hat wrote:
Owen had an awful season in a team unsuited to getting the best of out him, it happens.


It sure does. But lack of effort should never, and especially when you are playing for a team who need you in their most desperate time in the past decade, and who have paid you handsomely for very scant return (not of Owen's doing, but you'd imagine he should have a feeling of 'owing' his employers). Effort is not what I saw from Michael Owen, though we'll all judge it differently.

Magic Hat wrote:
I like players who want to reach the highest levels and certainly going to Real and Man U gives any player a chance to do that


Pure speculation on my part, but I'm not sure Owen's move is an attempt to recapture former glory domestically. Personally I think he has most of his thoughts on the England goalscoring record, rather than achieving shared trophy success and becoming a highly regarded player once again. I think the desire is on the wane.


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 Post subject: Re: Manchester United
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 7:57 pm 
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Magic Hat wrote:
Owen's an Everton fan who, Rooney aside, don't seem to have much of a problem with Man U.

:puzzled: So Rooney has a problem with Man U?


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