I think we simply have to look at the fact that Liverpool has constantly been earning more commercial revenue than we have, despite turning in worse performances, results and having more negative press than we've had over the last decade (or more). Don't me wrong, we will struggle to get bumper deals, but Arsenal is still very marketable. I just don't think we've had good enough business people behind the scenes for years now.

Well you've gone and ruined the vibe by getting married. Now I have to drop my guard and congratulate you! only messing, congratulations mate, was that you and your wife, in her dress at the Emirates on Wednesday night by any chance.

Good points, like you I always look to the next fixture and agree whats done is done but because this has gone on for so long it cannot be ignored. Wenger is suffocating this club. All this role model business stuff they feed us is bollocks. How can a business claim such things and then risk loosing a huge chunk of revenue on the lost CL revenue. How can a club looking to be a global brand, high in revenue suffocate its own chances of getting there. Its been "taking 1 step forward and 2 steps back" for years now but now its just cocked up. The squad may well be exciting for the future but now? Wenger isn't even remotely getting every last ounce out of these players let alone tightening up the defense.

Thanks, been married nearly four years, now though, and that's the point I'm trying to make. I rarely let anything (work included) stop me from being able to watch my Arsenal. I am my own boss, so I am able to make that happen. Wedding was back in December 2007, we played Everton away. They hauled me away to get dressed after Eduardo had just scored his first, didn't see the rest until afterwards.

Maybe it's a matter of penny-wise, pound foolish, since we have scrimped on the squad's quality over the years and it seems likely to be costing us in genuine lost revenue. For want of 2-3 quality players in the £10-12 million, we might end up losing £25 million in CL revenue per year (plus the knock on of lower commercial revenue if we continue to do poorly). That simply isn't good business. This is where I think we can agree.

What I will say though, again, is that we're nowhere near as poor as a lot of us think With the resources we have now, which we also cannot do much about until January at the earliest, Wenger is probably the only guy to continue sailing this ship for the time being. Kroenke probably realizes this. They will do some spending in January, I'm sure of that. They must do something. If not, and we suffer for it....again, then you know what? I'll be front row in the pitchfork-and-torch carrying mob that'll be sure to line up in front of the Emirates come 2012.

Nail on the head. That's what I was trying to get at when I said that we shouldn't judge him by what he says but by what he does - or rather not does.

Yup, "careful what you wish for" Fans are gagged, the club plays on hells boundaries and the business model to be adored is looking likely to kill any chances of pulling off show stopping sponsorship deals, revenue. To boast such a business model you have to play in the middle of the park. Wengers so far astray its become beyond repairable purely down to his own strict ways of dealing with the job at hand which isn't even remotely helped by Stan or any other head at Arsenal. Security Stan is turning out to be the silent monster we thought Usmanov was.

What does this mean? Sorry, I genuinely dont understand this?

I dont think we can evaluate Kroenke's business model yet, as its not his but the previous boards, he hasnt been able to make too many inroads as he hasnt owned his large share for too long, and secondly, the impact of Financial Fair Play may put us in a much better position then fans think - although we wont be able to tell this for a while.

The club is in a strong position to miss out on a CL spot which financially will be covered by the safety net. Everything thats led to this mess the clubs in is playing on hells boundaries. That money should be kept at Arsenal disposal for as long as possible. Theres ways of avoiding implosions, neglect and all round stupidity, we all know that. The club is not in a strong position both on and off the field, don't expect revenues to reach heights it could well of done had this mess the clubs in been avoided. This just adds to the years of frustration.

Stans said proper investment needs to be made yet sucks up to Wenger so whats the chances of this ever happening? Stans business plan is one thing, Wenger dictating is another.

FFP doesn't even have to be taken into account here. Wengers neglected the club as a whole, all of which could have been avoided.

The investment issue is a concern, you are of course right. We should have invested wiser and now I think we will have no choice too next summer, when the gap between us and the top clubs has widened greatly from only the position a few months ago.

I see your point on the revenue streams, but as Spurs and Liverpool have both signed mega lucrative deals in the last 2 seasons, during which time they were not in the Champions League (Liverpool Standard Chartered, and Spurs Autonomy I believe was prior to their debut in CL) shows that more nous in the marketing team (from Gazidis) should ensure that we are more profitable solely from this one source.

If Kroenke sacks Wenger, how does he stand then as chairman? Wenger divides the fans yes, but if he was trigger happy then we would be financially massively out of pocket to pay off his staff and Wenger himself, increasing the frugility shown by our club. Kroenke would be hated by 50% of the fans for getting rid of the most successful manager of our time (I wont comment on justifications for or against here). He'd also hep massive pressure on himself to choose the right man for the replacement - somethign again that I cant see Kroenke wanting to do at this stage.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you need to look at the situation as a whole, the reality of it all.

Tottenham have become stronger, media coverage is positive, the vibe at Tottenham is currently very healthy.
Liverpool have been a sleeping giant for a number of years yet the vibe is still positive, the coverage is still positive. Liverpools fans play a huge part in that.

Arsenal on the other hand is getting negative coverage, the vibe around the place isn't positive and state of affairs are nothing short of pure stupidity. Yes when the time comes sponsorship deals will indeed be better than the current ones but the view I have on it is Arsenal have not got anything to stand up tall against companies looking for the clubs signature. Not sure if this makes sense but the club has lost the "We're Arsenal" front. Arsenal will end up signing deals that meet certain level lower than what could have been obtained.



Its too late to sack Wenger. We just have to hope he wakes up and addresses the neglect or he'll fail in the same areas yet again. As for trigger happy? na theres funds available, theres deadwood that need to be shipped out. Everything can be balanced, theres nothing that suggests the club will be out of pocket.

This should probably be moved away from a Kroenke debate into one more appropriate. But aside from that, if you think that our sponsorship deals will suffer because of the negative portrayal of our club and the negativity, I dont buy that argument as such as Liverpool couldnt have been any worse for two years the state Hicks and Gillett left the club in, and they had showed no signs of real progress when they got their bumper deal.

Liverpool done well > viewtopic.php?f=66&t=24109
As for the unrest. Well the fans carried the club, the history carried the club and as you word, portrayal or common sense regarding the club pushed them towards the deal. Liverpools media coverage was good and bad but it was intense, would sponsorship companies see that as a good reason to get their name on the business? We all knew change was on the horizon, at some point anyway.

Arsenal can do or could have done much better. Even an extra few million would show how strong the club is. Theres a lot of positive yet the negatives overrule the positives because its stupidity and everyone can see it. I just can't see what could have been happening now. The whole things despicable.

Stan is part of this, its his job to firmly address this. I'm in two minds here. Stan says real investment needs to made yet in his exclusive he sucks up to Wenger. Whether he's voiced it with real conviction is anyones guess but I wouldn't hold hopes of that happening, not after as said the obvious rear end licking going on. If Stans not going to firmly put his foot down who is? That either means leaving Wenger to neglect the club because he wants to do the impossible or bring someone in at board level to aid him, push him in the right direction.. we all know who that person is but it wont happen so we're screwed with incompetent men.

Is Stan part of the problem or solution?

Stan is half the problem; Wenger is the other half! They share the same exclusive objective which is to make money. I remain to be convinced that Arsene's compensation package does not depend on his making profit on transfers. That's why Stan is so much in love with Arsene. Winning anything is way down on their list of targets.

To be fair, nothing much has changed. The much lauded prior owners made more money from AFC than anyone else has ever achieved at any other club. The tone had been set when Stan took over and he has been only too happy to continue the process. This enables many fans to see the change as smooth and seamless. It was both those things unfortunately!

I havent seen the latest accounts, so cant back this up 100% but I am pretty certain none of the Directors take a salary from Arsenal. I am near certain that Arsenal have never paid dividends to shareholders. So Kroenke wont make money out of the club unless he sells it for a profit, which he could already have done to Usmanov.

The window went terribly, and we left it too late to bring in decent players, so not sure what Kroenke can do now other than back Wenger.

Arsenal owner Stan Kroenke is in it for the long haul, says son and heir Josh
In the second part of his special report on the Arsenal owners, Jeremy Wilson meets Stan Kroenke’s son, Josh, in Denver.
By Jeremy Wilson, Denver - 8:00AM BST 01 Oct 2011
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/footba ... -Josh.html

Josh Kroenke has arrived for some photographs to accompany his interview and a cynic could be forgiven for thinking that he is trying just a bit too hard to please his English audience. Accompanied by a real-life British bulldog, one might wonder whether he is making some sort of subliminal point about the spirit that the Kroenke family can inject into an Arsenal team whose character is regularly questioned. Fortunately, it soon emerges that Fletcher, Josh’s pet dog, actually follows him just about everywhere and is a regular visitor to the Pepsi Centre, the Denver base for much of his father’s sporting empire. It certainly adds to the relaxed feel of a family organisation in which Josh, who is only 31, is taking an increasingly influential role.

When Stan completed his full takeover of the St Louis Rams American football team last year, the National Football League’s cross-ownership rule meant that control of both the basketball and ice hockey teams passed to Josh. And, although he repeatedly praises the Arsenal executives and stresses his focus on the job in Denver, he is attracted to the idea of eventually becoming involved in his dad’s Premier League acquisition. “That would be great,” he says. “I don’t pretend to possess the knowledge base that the people over there who are running it do but, from a business stand-point in sports, it’s all similar yet different. I love London. I would love to be involved at some level but I have to understand what I am doing on the most intricate levels before I get involved in something like that."

“My dad’s philosophy is to hire the people you think will do the best job and let them do their job. I’ve had a few conversations with Ivan [Gazidis, the Arsenal chief executive]. He is very smart. It’s fascinating to learn about and I’m sure at some point I’ll be itching to get involved. I just can’t say how yet. For the time being I’m really happy with where I am.”

Given his father’s record of never having sold a share in any of his sports teams, it is clear that the Kroenke family are in it for the long term. After the Hill-Woods and Bracewell-Smiths, perhaps custodianship at Arsenal could yet move down the generations of a new family. “I don’t know if there was anybody in our family who was more excited about Arsenal than I was,” says Josh. “Soccer was one of my first loves growing up. I was 14 when the World Cup was here in 1994. It was a powerful experience. I was playing in soccer tournaments all over the mid-west almost every weekend from the ages of 11 to 15.” Josh eventually focused on basketball and won a scholarship to the University of Missouri before taking a job as an underwriter for Lehman Brothers and then moving into sports management. He is now the governor of both the Denver Nuggets and Colorado Avalanche.

Like just about every Kroenke executive, whether at franchises in St Louis or Denver, he speaks repeatedly about stability, the long-term and consistency. It is a culture that is designed to give head coaches an environment in which they can thrive. “Stan is not an owner who has teams as a toy, Stan’s not an owner who has teams just as an investment,” says Steve Spagnuolo, the head coach of the St Louis Rams. “I truly believe that Stan gets involved with these teams because he cares about the teams. He has an emotional tie to it.”

Spagnuolo’s colleague, Kevin Demoff, the chief operating officer of the St Louis Rams, also provides the insight of having previously worked for the Tampa Bay Buccaneers who are, of course, owned by the Glazer family. “I find them both to be really good leaders,” he says. “The Glazers are not public. I was impressed with how engaged they were behind the scenes, their understanding and resolve to win. A few people mistake Stan’s calm nature for not being engaged. He is not silent. He is willing to ask tough questions but also knows when to stay in the background. He has a model that he believes works.”

Arsenal clearly fit that model, yet there is also no hiding the allure of the business opportunity. Stan Kroenke, himself, noted the potential of the Premier League’s overseas broadcast deal when he spoke to Telegraph Sport. “Television is very important,” he said. “Domestically at some point you have pretty much saturated everything, so it is all about international opportunities. The Premier League is better at it than anyone else. It’s exciting.”

Jim Martin, the president and chief executive of Kroenke Sports and Entertainment who was also COO of Fox Sports Net, also emphasises the international aspect. “It is already there as a global product,” he says. “Stan thinks globally. It’s a huge opportunity in Mr Kroenke’s mind, far beyond what we could ever achieve with the teams here. I’m an NFL fan, I love [American] football and think it is the greatest game around. We think of that as the pinnacle. Well, internationally, it’s not. It’s football but it’s not our football. It’s soccer. It [Arsenal] is an opportunity that is beyond the rest of the organisation, at least at this stage.”

The final word, though, should perhaps go to Josh, whose modest outlook and sheer effort seem to have won over colleagues who might have resented his rapid rise up the company. “I know my dad has a certain vision,” he says. “He’s in it for the long haul in everything he does, from his wineries to real estate to his sports investments. He is a competitive person. My dad and I used to square off in the driveway and play basketball and baseball. When I was a little guy he wouldn’t let me win anything. There were some heated battles in a lot of different sports. He wants to win and that won’t be any different at Arsenal.”

So "he's in it for the long term". But what is his long term goal? Is it to have the club win things, or for him to make money?

ALL the evidence I have seen so far from Kronke and all other US owners is that they are there to make money.

Here's a prediction....No American owner will see their club win the Premier League...ever.

I really hope I'm wrong!